front pump leak

[davegee]

Hi Guys,
Any alternative advice on a front pump seal repair?
Be a huge bummer to pull the engine, to pull the trans, to replace that seal.

Car was parked for about 5 years while life happened. Got her back on the road and 1000 miles or so later, she started to drip.

any comments or advice is appreciated.

[Egenolf]

Hello,

it seems that the front pump of the transmission is meant, see the picture below:

Front oil pump:

20054

may be you can pull the transmission far enough if the drive shaft is disassembled and the transmission is separated from the converter housing

[jdsnoddy]

Thanks for this and the education. John

[davegee]

Ok, my apologies.
I am leaking trans fluid. I pulled the front inspection cover to expose the flywheel/converter and also cover that covers the rear of the trans bell housing.
I can see a rounded cover that appears to be at the rear of the torque converter but in front of the trans oil pan.
Fluid is leaking up behind the torque converter between that round cover surrounding the lower rear of the converter and the trans case.
In other cars, this would be the front trans pump seal where the converter slides into the pump.

In every other car I have worked on, the bell housing is part of the trans. That only leaves the one option of pulling the trans, pulling the converter out, and then installing a new seal.

I have not had a Mark II trans out, but I can see and have read that the bell housing bolts on. I have read that the trans cannot be pulled with the engine in the car unless it is partially disassembled inside the frame and removed in 2 or 3 pieces.


Again, my apologies

Thanks again for any advice.

[Mark Norris]

I've just had my engine out and back in after a full rebuild. I don't think there is anyway to remove the transmission without a) removing the engine first, or b) removing the engine and transmission in one assembly. Splitting the engine from the transmission in the car is easily done in less than an hour (remove starter & bolts (3 of), remove flex-plate nuts/bolts while in neutral (6 of) and bellhousing bolts (6 of). Make sure the torque converter stays in the bellhousing as you slide back and remove the engine.

I would suggest if you are on your own then remove the engine then the trans for "ease of handling". I used a 2-1/5" ton engine crane just to get enough reach beyond the front bumper
and into the engine bay. You'll need to remove the radiator (4 bolts and two pipe clips, easy job) and fan assemble but not the hood if you are careful. I made a special low profile lifting clamp when I removed my engine but its probably not really necessary.

If you instead plan to lift the whole assembly on one piece then remove the hood, radiator, front grills and all the associated framework which will make extracting it much easier. Someone once posted the framework would take an hour to remove but I'd say more like two or three. I would say going this way is much more extra time and hassle than splitting the engine from the transmission and lifting out in two parts.

From your description the leak could be from the torque converter seals that ride on the transmission input shaft (quite easily changed after sliding off the torque converter to gain access to them, note there are two drain plugs on the front flat face of the torque converter) or from where the input shaft enters the transmission.

Hope this helps.

[Egenolf]

Mark,

I think you are right, probably it is not possible to remove the transmission completely without removing the engine before but maybe it is possible to pull the transmission far enough to remove the converter with its housing and change the seals of the converter and the front pump.

Dave,

To my mind, it is necessary to pull the transmission about 8 to 10 inches to be able to disassemble the converter housing, see the yellow marker below:

20062

worth a try?

[davegee]

Thank you gentlemen.
I do appreciate your input

[Don Henschel]

Why is everybody so scared of engine and transmission removal? Have you ever removed an engine and or transmission from a front wheel drive car? Try it some time and in many cases requires lifting the body and dropping the engine/transmission sub chassis from the bottom. Next people are searching around for an "older" mechanic because they feel the younger crowd doesn't know how to work on them which is nonsense because in reality these are actually quite crude or simple in design! Ever rebuild a modern transmission with overdrive or a transaxle? I had this pleasure and even the older three speed automatics from the seventies are a walk in the park!
Oh and as mentioned previously and by myself, you most certainly don't have to remove the grill, or the front Clip as well and there are options to how to remove the power train as well. Back in the day a mechanic would have been sacked for removal of the grill as well.
When removing the power train you have two options:
Remove the engine only as I have due to room limitations and also to what actually has to be removed I.E. If I already have had extensive work done to the transmission and there is a problem with the engine requiring repairs, removal of the transmission is pointless.
As mentioned earlier room limitations due to a small shop! My garage is 24x24 with a work bench in the front of the bay. My shop crane has swivel casters on all four wheels allowing it to travel in all directions and in my case I raised the front of the vehicle high enough to slide my crane forward without the front wheel getting in the way if necessary. I placed my crane over the driver's fender, raised the engine and pushed the crane forward enough to clear the converter, and bell housing and removed the engine over the fender!
The transmission was supported using blocks or can be supported from above as well.
If using this method and transmission removal is required, carefully remove the converter to lighten or place a retainer strap across the bell housing to hold the converter in so it can't slide out of the pump and fall out.
Carefully slide the transmission forward using a small floor jack or slings and your shop crane and Lift it out. This transmission isn't overly heavy in reality and I carried mine around after it was cleaned and rebuilt. Using the retainer strap and a piece of cardboard placed on the floor, the transmission can even be stored standing up on the bell housing and this is why I place cardboard or plywood on the floor first so nothing gets gouged on concrete.

The other option is removal of the engine:transmission assembly as a unit over the grill or swung over to the side but requires more room due to length and of course the lifting devices are no longer centered on the engine but instead are moved farther back to balance the assembly better otherwise the transmission will drop down farther!

Let's face it and give more thought to what is already being done in the previous comments???
What is required to move the engine forward?
Removal of exhaust pipes, removal of fan and radiator if required.
Removal of the inspection cover, ducts if air cooled version, starter, removal of torque converter to flex plate bolts, after all you don't want to pull engine with converter attached?? Drain Coolant and remove all necessary hoses and don't forget the wiring and while your at it remove the battery and box for more access room.
Finally remove engine mount bolts and install your lifting device after removing air filter and carburetor if desired and yes disconnect fuel hose to fuel pump.
In reality what little is left to do to remove the engine entirely for transmission service compared to performing many of what's mentioned to slide the engine ahead??
Sounds like a lot of messing around working around the engine dangling ahead and most likely the transmission hasn't been worked on and is tired requiring a reseal as well? If the converter oring is cooked and leaking due to years of use the transmission is most likely due for some TLC anyway?

There is never time to do it right but always time to do it over and the shortcut is always the longest distance between two points.

PS
If A/C equipped you will have to recover the refrigerant, disconnect hoses and components as well and CAP ALL OF THE OPENINGS AND HOSES TO PREVENT ENTRY OF AIR, MOISTURE, AND DIRT!

[Don Henschel]

Why is everybody so scared of engine and transmission removal? Have you ever removed an engine and or transmission from a front wheel drive car? Try it some time and in many cases requires lifting the body and dropping the engine/transmission sub chassis from the bottom. Next people are searching around for an "older" mechanic because they feel the younger crowd doesn't know how to work on them which is nonsense because in reality these are actually quite crude or simple in design! Ever rebuild a modern transmission with overdrive or a transaxle? I had this pleasure and even the older three speed automatics from the seventies are a walk in the park!
Oh and as mentioned previously and by myself, you most certainly don't have to remove the grill, or the front Clip as well and there are options to how to remove the power train as well. Back in the day a mechanic would have been sacked for removal of the grill as well.
When removing the power train you have two options:
Remove the engine only as I have due to room limitations and also to what actually has to be removed I.E. If I already have had extensive work done to the transmission and there is a problem with the engine requiring repairs, removal of the transmission is pointless.
As mentioned earlier room limitations due to a small shop! My garage is 24x24 with a work bench in the front of the bay. My shop crane has swivel casters on all four wheels allowing it to travel in all directions and in my case I raised the front of the vehicle high enough to slide my crane forward without the front wheel getting in the way if necessary. I placed my crane over the driver's fender, raised the engine and pushed the crane forward enough to clear the converter, and bell housing and removed the engine over the fender!
The transmission was supported using blocks or can be supported from above as well.
If using this method and transmission removal is required, carefully remove the converter to lighten or place a retainer strap across the bell housing to hold the converter in so it can't slide out of the pump and fall out.
Carefully slide the transmission forward using a small floor jack or slings and your shop crane and Lift it out. This transmission isn't overly heavy in reality and I carried mine around after it was cleaned and rebuilt. Using the retainer strap and a piece of cardboard placed on the floor, the transmission can even be stored standing up on the bell housing and this is why I place cardboard or plywood on the floor first so nothing gets gouged on concrete.

The other option is removal of the engine:transmission assembly as a unit over the grill or swung over to the side but requires more room due to length and of course the lifting devices are no longer centered on the engine but instead are moved farther back to balance the assembly better otherwise the transmission will drop down farther!

Let's face it and give more thought to what is already being done in the previous comments???
What is required to move the engine forward?
Removal of exhaust pipes, removal of fan and radiator if required.
Removal of the inspection cover, ducts if air cooled version, starter, removal of torque converter to flex plate bolts, after all you don't want to pull engine with converter attached?? Drain Coolant and remove all necessary hoses and don't forget the wiring and while your at it remove the battery and box for more access room.
Finally remove engine mount bolts and install your lifting device after removing air filter and carburetor if desired and yes disconnect fuel hose to fuel pump.
In reality what little is left to do to remove the engine entirely for transmission service compared to performing many of what's mentioned to slide the engine ahead??
Sounds like a lot of messing around working around the engine dangling ahead and most likely the transmission hasn't been worked on and is tired requiring a reseal as well? If the converter oring is cooked and leaking due to years of use the transmission is most likely due for some TLC anyway?

There is never time to do it right but always time to do it over and the shortcut is always the longest distance between two points.

PS
If A/C equipped you will have to recover the refrigerant, disconnect hoses and components as well and CAP ALL OF THE OPENINGS AND HOSES TO PREVENT ENTRY OF AIR, MOISTURE, AND DIRT!

[Jeff Smith]

I have to agree with Don. I have removed the 430 from my 63 and a 390 from my 61 thunderbird. It may look like a huge job but in reality it is not. It is old technology, very heavy stuff but pretty easy to figure out from one step to the next.

[davegee]

Thank you gentlemen for all your comments and thoughts.

It will be a good time to cosmetically refresh the engine as well.

[Mark Norris]

I have to agree with Don also. I'd never lifted a whole engine out of car before but with a suitably sized engine crane I did it by myself ..including putting back in. Its very heavy but its a simple job if you take it methodically and gradually.

Personally I would avoid the hassle and extra work involved in removing the engine and transmission in one piece. Take the engine out then the transmission ..it'll be a whole lot easier and quicker overall. Remember to support the front of the bell housing before disconnecting the engine (I used a simply scissor jack ..easy to precisely adjust the transmission height when putting the engine back in!).

[Egenolf]

the removal of the engine/transmission assembly as a unit is much easier, when the grill is disassembled:

20075

otherwise, you have to pull the assembly quite a bit higher which creates an unstable construction.

To my mind you can attach the straps to the exhaust manifolds.

[Mark Norris]

Completely agree ...but with a normal $30 universal V8 lift plate attachment in place of the carb (which puts the hook and crane jib much lower than a sling around the manifolds) you can lift out the engine without either removing/refitting the grill assembly (about 4 hrs in total) and without removing and refitting/aligning the 90 lbm hood (a 3 person job). Plus you need to split the transmission from the engine anyway (less than an hour with the engine in or out).

Tip: swivel the engine transverse before lifting it over the grill section and you'll be able to pump up the crane jib a couple more inches for better clearance of the sump over the grill.

With the front bumper in place I had to have the jib all the way out on the 0.5 ton hole in order to get the hook to reach over the lifting plate.

[Guy Hill]

Thank you for daring to comparing this power train exercise for a Mark II with the comparable task for a contemporary FWD vehicle. For the most part, the demographics of the Mark II community (I'm 75) would have them nowhere near wrenching on a FWD vehicle. It takes a special kid of enthusiast to have bridged that canyon and have real world experience with both power train configurations. My hat is off to you.

I stay young by doing heavy line repairs on computerized FWD Lincoln/Continental stuff too! The nursery rhymes were right: "When the bough breaks the cradle will fall and down will come baby cradle and all!"

[GasWorksGarage]

There are no bolts on the inside of the bell housing going to the gear box only the 4 outer bolts. Thanks