Mark II Price Bashing

[Howard Hussey]

I've noticed a trend of price bashing on this forum for moderately priced Mark II's. Every car for sale gets clobbered on authenticity regardless of price. If perfection is what you expect then be prepared to pay $247,500 at RM Auction. If the guy who bought this car read the forum he wouldn't pay $40,000 for it because the dipstick was the wrong color 'really !!!' I would challenge 99.9 % of you on the authenticity of your Marks. It's all the hype by the owners of average 69 muscle cars that make the price go through the roof even though they made 100's of thousands of them. My current convertible conversion will cost me about $150k and I'm not concerned that I may have a wrong colored bolt somewhere. That would add another $50k. I will probably be selling my convert. Mark II so I can build the retractable version to keep for myself. However I'd be afraid to list it on this forum as it would probably receive the usual bashing. I build beautiful cars that please me and hopefully others.My 62 mild custom Lincoln convertible took a first place local award over a $1.000,000 deuce coupe.Recently DeTamosa Pantera's moved from $30k to $100 k due to a hyped up frenzy. Richard Rawlings paid over $300k at BJ for his, built by Ring Bros. Our rare cars should be worth far more than a Cuda that is a piece of tin on wheels with a big motor. I'm interested in your feedback, especially those who have the Pebble Beach authenticity bug up their rear.

[Duke]

I do not know if I have a bug up my rear but, my youngest son wants to "restore" cars for a living and so I find myself being constantly referred to as a hoarder or old guy who doesn't get it, when it comes to cars.
The conversations invariably get to what I think a restoration is and what he is sure of. Simply said, I guess, a concourse restoration is what it is and a modified is what it is. Somewhere in between is what most of us have.
He did a '71 GTO as a mod and it is just beautiful. People double take when he shows it. Value? triple what a '71 GTO sells for (not Concourse) and they pass those cars by at a show.
I am not sure I would take a nice original and modify it unless it was one of many, as the Mark II is.
A retractable? It is what Ford wanted to do with the Mark II but never did and that explains the lack of a convertible and I believe the lack of a convertible was a great factor in the Mark's uninspired popularity as time rolled on.
Value.......I paid $5,000 for mine in 1971.....today maybe $20,000. Something is wrong there.
All of the Mercedes I have are much better investments and higher production cars and they are mostly convertibles and still supported by Mercedes. (Santa Adds at Christmas)
Just look at the prices of Mustangs and we all had a Mustang. I believe one of the problems is no one really identifies with the Mark II. Seriously, when is the last time you saw one riding down the road at other than a show?

Having said that....mine is not for sale.

[RL Chilton]

My Mark II is perfect.

You know . . . in my head. ;)

I agree with you Howard. I've been a car guy all my life and on one hand I hate what BJ and other big time auctions have done to the car industry, which is basically make the hobby a rich man's endeavor. It's good if you already own a car, but bad for the fellas that want one. If the standard for a Mark II was 250K, I wouldn't even be here, as in all probability, I would never own one.

If it's any consolation, all of the car forums are the same when it comes to authenticity-issues. The main core of each forum is true and devoted to their favorite marque. The outsiders are usually the ones that come on the forums to ask questions about availability of parts and pieces, and have drivers or modifieds and are not interested in "making like it came out of the factory." Mark II's are not the exception to this trend.

[RL Chilton]

And for the record, Howard, I would LOVE to see more pics of your convertible and I'm looking forward to the retractable project. I'm hoping you will have a blog or something so I can watch your progress. Heck, if you don't want to post pics of the convertible here, feel free to email them to me:

MKIIrlchilton52@gmail.com (drop the MKII)

[mastersg]

How much did the Mark II's sell for out in AZ? Were there three of them?

[aerostar flyer]

I saw this car last year at a show in Calif. I mentioned to the owner that it was the nicest Mark II I had ever seen. Truly a first class restoration. The car was for sale at that time for $125K,which I turned my nose up on. It later sold to a dealer in California ( Crevier )for close to asking. He is the one that brought it to RM and got the big number. He was right and I was clearly wrong.

[Howard Hussey]

Nice to hear the comments coming in. I guess anyone who buys a Mark II thinks outside the box. To me, most of those who buy the
muscle cars at high prices are like sheep (follow the trend) Don't get me wrong, I love Mustangs etc. but if you go to car shows there are
so many that I lose interest. When I go, I have the only Lincoln there and get more interest and kind comments. As for the auction results
RM- Arizona lot224=$247,500
BJ - lot977=$46,200
lot1026=$79,200
lot1306=$104,500 CUSTOM go figure
lot1601=$42,900
The beautiful body style of the Marks are more important to me than authenticity and I will therefore 'tastefully' try to enhance what I have. It has worked for me in the past as I tend to get far more $ for my cars. I've sold cars for twice what a stock car was worth. I know a lot of you will cry at that statement but I doubt if anyone of you have a truly authentic Mark. That means nuts, bolts, bias ply tires, no aftermarket A/C etc. I have been so involved in my restoration that I've been lame at posting more pics & update. If interested my son has also posted much about the build on
Ontario Rodders
(scroll to)My builds/my rides
(scroll to)Continental build
When I'm done my conversion, I think most will agree that I have not strayed too far.

[rsss]

Hi Howard I checked out the pictures of your convertible it is looking great :)

[Doc]

We’ve all talked, in various threads on this Forum, about Mark II prices and their relatively low value (compared to common muscle cars, etc.). We’ve also often commented on the authenticity of the restorations that we see for sale on the Forum and sometimes suggest that the lack of authenticity might account for the low prices. I’m not sure I always agree and I think the sale of 2989 for $247,500 at RM is sort of evidence of that. While I haven’t seen that car since it was sold to Crevier (and I don’t know how much, if any, work they did to it before it went to RM), I was very familiar with it while it belonged to Tony Castellano, who originally restored it.

As I’ve commented in prior threads, Tony did an extraordinary job on the restoration; he is a professional restorer and has done high quality cars for the Petersen Museum in Los Angeles, etc. While 2989 was not a complete “frame off,” it was an extraordinarily thorough cosmetic restoration and the quality of the work was exceptional. In every case, he sought to do an authentic restoration, but in fairness I believe this was his first Mark II and he missed a couple of fine points (as has been pointed out in other threads about this car). In some cases, the car was also “over-restored” (e.g. the gloss black paint under the hood is better than most of our cars’ exterior finish). Tony also chose an exterior color that was not original to 2989 nor a standard Mark II option (yes, I know a customer could have ordered any color).

Mark II "purists” (like us ;)) can point out a variety of minor issues with this car, but most knowledgeable car enthusiast would consider it perfect or maybe even “concours quality.” The fact that 2989 won a bucket load of BOCs in Southern California’s best concours is proof of that. Conversely, I’m not sure how it would do in an LCOC event. (My own judgment? I thought Tony did such a good job we had him do a complete restoration of our engine compartment—it’s beautiful, and free of the little mistakes in the finish details of 2989, but frankly I suspect “over-restored” by LCOC standards).

We’ve all said the Mark II is a work of art. Like any piece of art, the value is in its aesthetic appeal, not necessarily its technical authenticity. 2989’s aesthetic appeal is worth a million bucks (well, OK, only a quarter of a million); that should make us all feel good.

[lincoln mark]

I hear what everyone is saying. Here is a perfect example. A friend of mine owns a high end auto body shop. He is a old time drag racer/Good Guys member. He made a resto mod out of a 1964 Falcon, a beautiful piece of work. The car has won two Good Guy awards in Columbus , Ohio. He turned down $75,000. He figures he has $40,000 in it. Now here is the second part of the story.
One of his regular shop customers is getting older, 82, and is getting rid of a few of his collection. He GAVE my friend his 1966 Lincoln convertible, just beautiful, teal green, white top and interior. My friend wanted to see the value of the car, so he shopped it around. The highest value he came up with was $32,000. The Lincoln is three times the car the Falcon is.
Me and him, he's 71, were talking about the market and values. Its real simple. The big money is in "the cars of our youth". That is what everyone is lusting after.
As far as my cars go, I have changer colors, interiors anything I could to "personalize" to my taste. I use them for shopping, Lowes, Home Depot, picking up truck parts. I even have taken the dogs to the Vet in the beige one! As you can tell I am not a big fan of 100 point cars or trailer queens. If you can afford the gas, run the hell out of them, lol Mark A Maromonte. P.S. My wife will not ride in them. I told her she's a trailer queen.

[Howard Hussey]

John: Glad you liked the pictures. Pete: Very well put. Aesthetic appeal kind of sums up my m.o. and deserves to be respected. It's a balancing act for most of us who restore these cars to keep them as authentic as possible without breaking the bank. Over restored is fine with me. Russell: I'm sure there will always be affordable driver quality Marks as there is still affordable muscle cars. I guess my point is the money spent restoring these beauties should be reflected in their final value. Authenticity should not be the 'only' judging factor of price as evidenced with the sale of 2989. Mark: Your comments are right on. I spent a small fortune on my 62 Lincoln convertible knowing it will be lost money but love sometimes overrules money.

[VidyBidneth]

I remember back in 89 when I purchased my 64 Falcon Futura V8 convertible that I saw predictions that the Mark II would be the first $100,000 American production coupe. Then the market went south. A couple of years later I bought a Mark II for $6,000 in Queens, NY. I lost it when a friend who was storing it Suffolk County, NY passed away in the early 90s. I had given him the title several years earlier when he had opportunities to sell it for me. Never knew what happened to it. It was black with black and white interior and had period correct after market AC.

[RL Chilton]

[QUOTE= P.S. My wife will not ride in them. I told her she's a trailer queen.[/QUOTE]

That's incredibly sad!:(

[RL Chilton]

"I spent a small fortune on my 62 Lincoln convertible knowing it will be lost money but love sometimes overrules money."

Howard-

Ain't that the truth? I did the same with my Hudson. But, at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter. The smile on my face with the wind in my hair makes it all good.

Saw the pics and info Howie posted on the Ontario site--really enjoyed it. I've bookmarked it so I can keep up with the build. Y'all are doin' a great job. I hope you continue on with the retractable project, as that's one I've been contemplating for 40 years. If I could ever step away from the Hudsons . . .

[ishigakisensei]

Howard, I'm now 41 and I think what you're seeing is just a bubble that is going to pop once the Baby Boomers run out of money or simply die off. My generation does not idolize the 1960s the way that the Boomers do and there is no way that my generation is going to pay the prices for common cars that are slower and handle worse than most common Honda Civics on the 1990s. Muscle Cars in the early part of the the 2000s will be the Beanie Babies & baseball cards of the 1990s.

Right now, I'm trying to get a parts car (with a title) that can be made whole again but not 100% (or even 70%) original. That is fine by me as I don't want a stock car from the 1950s when the build quality in every way can be made better with modern parts. I want to swap in a V10 with a Mustang AT & aftermarket AC most likely with a modern Lincoln interior just to be different. I want a father-son project and I'm in no hurry to get it done tomorrow.

Blessed are the purists but a restomod car with modern brakes, suspension, polybushings, seats & console, AC, etc is simply better as a driver in every way that matters. Making memories with my sons is more important than making a profit.

I know that this car is not cheap in its own right, but this Art Morrison 1955 Chevy proves how good a classic car can be:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEZpnBAilCY

You're right about the negativity of cars not being 100% pure, but I find an apostate car far better than one being crushed to never be seen or enjoyed visually again. Viv la différence!

[fcar]

Well worth the time to go through the build--looking forward to seeing the buildout to completion. Very nice work being done not to mention the engineering and fabrication.

http://www.ontariorodders.activeboard.com/t58649982/continental-build/?sort=oldestFirst&page=1

[Bob Barger]

I don't know if my car would qualify as a restomod. I kept the appearance as original as I could and only changed things that, in my opinion made it more reliable. The disc brakes, new Edelbrock carburetor, Mallory electronic ignition, electric wipers, alternator electric fuel pump and aftermarket air conditioning are things i did (oh and I added a fan shroud). I kept original colors and materials, not original to my car but original to the Mark, just because I like them better. My car is so reliable I can jump in it and go anywhere, that is important to me. It looks original until you open the hood and see the Master Cylinder and carburetor.

I probable impacted the value of my car by doing these things but I love it the way it is. I also didn't do anything to it that cannot be unbolted and the original parts installed with not a lot of effort.

[Howard Hussey]

Bob: Your my kind of guy. Except for the convertible top mine is pretty much stock with a few enhancements. Yesterdays post by Wayne Thomas points out the younger guys point of view. In the future most Mark II's will be restomods. All the coveted 50's chevs etc are going this way now & fetching big dollars. Point is they love the look but want modern conveniences. It's not our world anymore.
Some kids today don't know who the Beatles are. There will always be a 'limited' place (museums) for extraordinary cars that are point perfect but for those who want to enjoy their car I would encourage modifications to the suspension, engine etc. Leave the body as is. We all like the look or we wouldn't buy them. The choice no longer belongs to baby boomers. Example is I love classic country music but can't stand the new country. More Marty, Ray & Merle please. I also love 100 point cars but let's make allowances in the forum for a younger point of view. Maybe under it's own heading like 'Restomods' or 'Mild Customs'

[Doc]

I probable impacted the value of my car by doing these things but I love it the way it is. I also didn't do anything to it that cannot be unbolted and the original parts installed with not a lot of effort.

I've seen Bob's car multiple times. I not sure that even the most discerning Mark II enthusiasts would be able to tell it wasn't 100% stock/authentic from the exterior and most knowledgeable car folks would only be able to tell it wasn't stock under the hood when they recognized the master cylinder isn't period correct.

Given the reliability factor, I'm sure Bob has impacted the value of his car: it's worth more than it would have been without his subtle modifications.

[ishigakisensei]

My car is so reliable I can jump in it and go anywhere, that is important to me. It looks original until you open the hood and see the Master Cylinder and carburetor.


Hear! Hear!

What good is it to restore a car so perfectly that it has to stay locked up in a museum/garage somewhere never to be seen again or when it is seen, it has to be trailered?

The MarkII is unquestionably a mobile piece of art that can inspire the imaginations of young people when they see it in action. After all, cars are meant to be functional pieces of art and a a nearly 60 year old daily driver is an amazing achievement in its own right! It would offer a far more rewarding experience than driving, say a Toyota Camry while at the same time offering the same reliability as the Camry!