2815 Recent purcahse of a mark ii have a few questions

[vapoli]

I just bought a 56 with ac, and ive noticed the hood does not close right, so after doing some reaserach i see that alot of people rebuild the hood hinges to make the hood sit right?

Who should i use to rebuild them, any leads would be appreciated.

Thanks micahel warshaw
516 233 7788

long island ny

the car i bought is suppose to be jack warners car from hollywood, black with tan interior.

[Pat Marshall]

Welcome to the Forum!

Check the MARKETPLACE forum look under vendors of Mark II parts and services. The vendor in manchester TN has been doing them for years.

We can tell you about the history of your car if you tell us the vin.

[vapoli]

serial number is c56d2815

[Nick DeSpirito]

Jack Warner's car from Warner Bros. Studios. Is the interior original? It originally came with pig skin leather. Post some pictures if you can. :)

[vapoli]

http://i39.tinypic.com/jzaa1h.jpg

[Barry Wolk]

That is a proud hood.

[vapoli]

I have to send the hood out to the guy in Tennessee to fix the hinges.

[Barry Wolk]

That doesn't sound right. However, if the bolts are stripped, or the metal is cracked that the bracket is attached to, the hood could need repair. That should be able to be handled locally, I would think.

[Chuck Lutz]

Again, welcome to the Mark II Forum.

I have to second Barry's thought. The hood hinges of the Mark II are probably the most significantly under-thought feature on the car. There are few parts on the vehicle that are so critical to body alignment. Even the 2 versions of trunk hinges, generally are more stable. That being said, the hood is a serious piece of metal real estate.
To properly fit the hood, one would have to have to have the car to properly work all the issues together.
Just my $.02 having lived the dream :)

[vapoli]

I was told by the guy who has redoes the hinges that basically the hinges get out of whack, and they need to be redrilled. to proper align them.

[Barry Wolk]

I've removed the hood on my car. IMO, you cannot align the hinges off the car.

[Joseph Stebbins]

Make sure to check the hood itself for stress cracking. If the hood hinges are too worn they will cause stresses at the attachment point - think of the moment arm of that hood back to the mounting point.

I had to have mine repaired and reinforced.

[Barry Wolk]

I see someone used the 1/8" drilled hole alignment trick.

[Joseph Stebbins]

I see someone used the 1/8" drilled hole alignment trick.

We stole it from your post! It will get us close but as the hinges had worn so much we are not sure how it will end up. Now given that the rest of the clip is sitting on horses being worked on there is going to be a bit of aligning to do anyway...:)

[Barry Wolk]

Wouldn't you agree that it's impossible to actually do any alignment without putting the hinges on the car first?

[Joseph Stebbins]

Wouldn't you agree that it's impossible to actually do any alignment without putting the hinges on the car first?

I don't see how you could do it any other way. I can't fathom holding the hood in the air while you try and bolt the hinges to the firewall. A couple of those bolts are a PIA with all the stuff in the way and just the dead weight of the hinges themselves.

[Bob Barger]

I was told by the guy who has redoes the hinges that basically the hinges get out of whack, and they need to be redrilled. to proper align them.

The pin holes wear out of round and the pins are welded in, they (pins) have to be removed, the holes welded up and re-drilled and then the pins are welded back in place. You may want to talk to a welding shop, they may be able to fix them. Otherwise, check to see if there is a restoration shop in your area. They may send you somewhere or may be able to fix them for you.

[Barry Wolk]

I think you misunderstand. His contact wants him to send him the hinges and the hood. I don't know that I would let anyone that hasn't done the hinges before do them as the measurements are critical and they could do more harm than good.

We haven't heard back from the OP as to why they want the hood. I truly can't imagine making a crate well enough to protect such precious cargo. I don't think I'd let it out of my site, let alone let some cartage company mishandle it. talk about more harm than good. It's not like Mark II hoods are interchangeable without some work. QC on initial fit wasn't great.

[rfm45]

Michael,

Welcome. You'll find a wealth of help among the members.
Would you please post a few pics of the intereior. Several cars were trimmed with pig skin but I don't recall ever seeing an interior picture.

[Ricks]

I can't remember details clearly, but I definitely remember there was a strict "process" to follow when re-installing and adjusting the hood and hinges, per the fellow who restored all three of our Mark II's (Jeff Brecke).

If you PM me I'd be happy to share his phone #. It might not glean anything, but it's worth a shot. I agree that shipping off the hood and hinges seems awfully "blind stab in the dark".

[Bob Barger]

My car had 1/8 holes drilled in both the hood and trunk hinges. Since they had not been off before I got the car I assume they were drilled during original assembly.

I don't understand attaching the hinges to the hood (never mind trying to ship the hood) In order to align it, the hood and hinges have to be installed on the car once the front fenders are properly aligned.

[Barry Wolk]

I don't know why the factory would have done that, but I might be wrong.

Since yours was an early car it was not built by Mitchell. I can't recall the name of the first company that delivered "bodies in white", but I recall reading in the Continental files about slow deliveries and very poor workmanship and an enormous amount of lead. The bodies were fitted at the body maker on a jig. It could be that they were assembled and guide holes drilled before the front of the car was removed from the jig for shipment. Since they didn't have a frame to support the front fenders the entire front end was removed from the body.

Somewhere around here is a picture of how the bodies were shipped on a giant pallet.

I'm looking for a clean picture of the Mark IIs being shipped in bags. The only one I can find was copied off of grainy paper.

[Ralf Nygard]

I repaired my hinges myself with the hood on place(it was painted and during
adjustment I noticed that one hinge rivet per side had to be repaired though
I had already repaired a couple).
I strapped the front end of the hood from a beam in the garage roof and took off one hinge at the time.It was impossible to remove the hinges with
the lower hinge stud attached so I had to crawl under the dash with a hammer
and bang the studs out.Then I disassembled the hinge and welded the worn
holes round again(after some grinding).Anybody with a garage and some
tools can do it though it is not fun.Before the repair my hood was almost
one inch up from the cowl,not it is almost perfect.

[Pat Marshall]

Since yours was an early car it was not built by Mitchell. I can't recall the name of the first company that delivered "bodies in white", but I recall reading in the Continental files about slow deliveries and very poor workmanship and an enormous amount of lead. The bodies were fitted at the body maker on a jig. It could be that they were assembled and guide holes drilled before the front of the car was removed from the jig for shipment. Since they didn't have a frame to support the front fenders the entire front end was removed from the body.

Barry, I was surprised to learn that there were two Mark II body manufacturers. So, I called Lowell Domholdt to ask him about it and he said that he had never heard about a second body manufacturer and had never heard the term "bodies in white".

We're both very interested in learning more about that. Since the first Mark II made with a production body was Prototype 9502F (the Elmer Rohn car) and it used a Mitchell body, there must be quite a story there.

Considerations that Lowell raised:
(1) Why would they start with Mitchell for maybe as little as one unit and switch to a second vendor?

(2) Of course, what was the name of that vendor, and how many units did they make?

(3) Since automotive body stamping dies are horrendously expensive were there two sets of dies with each body maker being required to have a set for their production, or was there just one set that Continental owned and switched between body manufacturers?

I'm thinking this may require a trip to the Ford Archives for more research, so I'm wondering how one would get access to those records?

This is really interesting!

Barry, regarding shipping photos, I've found one - so far.

[Barry Wolk]

Yeah, I read a letter in the files to that effect. I thought that was common knowledge, so I didn't bring it up. In fact, I might have read that elsewhere, too.

I think you and Lowell should join me for a day at the files. Have ither of you been through the files? I've been there about a dozen times and I find something new each time. I found a box that you serial number mavens should go through. It's a box of cancelled Production Orders that's separate from the ascension box the Production Orders are in.

If you're lucky they will also bring out WCF's bound copy of the design competition drawings. That was pretty cool to see.

What you have to do is start looking for the files of some of the people that the WCF cc'd in his letters as I found additional information there. That's where I found the Chicago Division letter dealing with my car being damaged in shipment.

The documents are stored at the Benson Ford Research Library, nestled between The Henry Ford and Greenfield Village. You have direct access from the parking lot. You sign in and as for a guide to the book of ascension dealing with a period of Ford's history. There's a section for the Continental Division, but you have to look elsewhere.

When do you want to do a field trip? My shop is 20 minutes from there.

[Shawn Newcomb]

Pat,
Interestingly you and Barry were having a similar discussion almost exactly 3 years ago in a thread Prototype Fender Used on C5691379. Barry mentioned bodies in white there but couldn't remember the name of the 2nd supplier then either. I seem to recall seeing the photo Barry just mentioned around here too, but that was years ago. The archives have grown such that I don't think I could put my finger on it or even the context of that discussion anymore :(

[Roger Zimmermann]

So, I called Lowell Domholdt ....and had never heard the term "bodies in white".


The term "body in white" is usual in vehicle manufacturing. This is a complete body, sealed and primed but unpainted.

[Pat Marshall]

I've been going back through the Forum and have found "bodies in white" mentioned several times, including in threads that I have made postings. DOH!

I could not find the picture that Barry referenced nor the name of a 2nd body manufacturer.

Barry, I would like to take you up on your offer to visit the archives. Lowell isn't going to be able to make that trip in the forseeable future. Possibly You and I can set something up after the spring thaw?

Travelling to Detroit on route US 23 and I-75 can be pretty ferocious this time of year.

[Barry Wolk]

That's why they make airplanes. :D

[Barry Wolk]

I did a little research and I think they may have been made at the Ionia Mfg. plant before it burned and was replaced with the plant next door that built the rest of the Mark IIs. Coachbuilt.com says that the company was acquired in '53 by M-B, but that doesn't jibe with the production dates.

I'm beginning to remember more about the letter. It spoke of being very concerned that the smaller firm wouldn't be able to keep up with production as they had already lagged in delivery. I seem to distinctly remember that there was a complaint about a car that had one door an inch longer than the other.

I'm wondering if M-B made the prototypes with Continental's dies and then got them back. Possibly they shopped for a builder and got a better price than M-B and let the initial production contract to them, but pulled it when they didn't perform and transferred the dies back to M-B.

I just recently read that there was a die material change that saved them $600 a car. This may have been the turning point.

[Pat Marshall]

Check out the history for 2289 owned by Don Mitchell pres of Mitchell Bentley. There's a story about the company and the mark II

[Barry Wolk]

Does anyone here remember the story about 3 bodies being left over at M-B?

[Barry Wolk]

Someone just posted this on the H.A.M.B. in response to my request for body info.:eek: These were wood body bucks.

Looks like they miniaturized Roger next to his wood model.

[Shawn Newcomb]

Only from a mention in one of your old posts on the subject.

[Barry Wolk]

Got a link?

[Shawn Newcomb]

This was from the thread I mentioned being from @ 3years ago. -Shawn

I can't remember the name of the original body maker. The letters I read showed deep concern as to whether the original firm would be able to keep up with production demands. They went to Mitchell because they had larger capacity. However, I also read that they were very unhappy with the fit and finish of the Mitchell bodies, especially the amount of lead and how well it was finished. Many bodies had to be redone at Continental's shops before they were painted. I also read that there were several bodies in white left over at Mitchell's facility when the program ended. I saw a letter from Mitchell asking about the disposition of those bodies, but I never saw a response..I suppose a prototype fender could have gotten into the parts stream at some point.
__________________
Barry Wolk
Farmington Hills, MI

[Barry Wolk]

Well, that's a good clue. We'll just look for correspondence from Mitchell. That will be legible as some of the documents were probably 4th page carbons. Remember carbon paper?

[Pat Marshall]

Ah,yes!...and mimeograph machines and white-out and Dicta-Phones...

[Shawn Newcomb]

I believe this is the other angle to the previous photo

http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg18/barry2952/Markinthebag.jpg

[Barry Wolk]

This brings up another question. Is your data base based on the Invoices or the Production Orders? If you've not been to the research center you've not see the host of information hand-written on the P.O.s.

It appears that the Continental P.O.s were multi-part with carbon copies. The collection has the tissue copies. I think there was a stiffer paper or cardboard copy that followed the car down the line. Later Lincolns got them stuffed under seats and under dashboards after the car was assembled. Has anyone ever found one of these?

The P.O.s were pre-numbered, embossed into the page. I wonder if, when a car was cancelled, which I also read that many were, what happened to that number? Was it skipped, or were there P.O.s with hand-written numbers? I could see how record-keeping could have been problematic. I think that many answers await you, Grasshopper.

[Barry Wolk]

I believe this is the other angle to the previous photo

http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg18/barry2952/Markinthebag.jpg

That's the grainy picture. I can certainly see how my car, and likely many others, were damaged in shipment by the very device designed to protect them. I don't imagine they were shipped with their hood ornament in place as it would have been broken or shredded the cover. I just experinced driving in 40 mph winds. I can only imagine the buffeting the cars got from the bags flapping wildly in the wind. Certainly an unintended consequence.

The cars I've seen recently that are shipped in bags look like they are wearing tailored suits, compared to these.

[licorice]

Hi I see you are on the island ,where are you located. May have some one to do fix my number is 631-806-4925.
Tony Orofino.

[licorice]

Hi May have body shop in miller place that can handle that.
Tony

[vapoli]

im located in farmingdale that's where my shop is, my car has a new interior and its not pig skin anymore.

516 233 7788

[Barry Wolk]

Michael, unless you're a business its never a real good idea to post your phone number. Use the private message function for security.

[vapoli]

im not worried about my cell number being on here.

[licorice]

will call in am did you use Auto mat for interior
tony

[vapoli]

car came just the way you see it from previous owner.

[Keith W Colonna]

the regular cowhide seats had no seams at the corners since they were cut from one hide. I wonder if the original pigskin seats were one hide or seamed?...and if so, where?
Pigs slaughtered for food are too small to harvest hides that large....unless the pigskin used was from full grown wild boar...but then it would likely have too many blemishes. Anyone know?

[rfm45]

Let's ask the definitive question.

Does any one have pictures of an interior done in pigskin?

[Joseph Stebbins]

Let's ask the definitive question.

Does any one have pictures of an interior done in pigskin?

Does it have white laces?:D

[Pat Marshall]

the regular cowhide seats had no seams at the corners since they were cut from one hide. I wonder if the original pigskin seats were one hide or seamed?...and if so, where?
Pigs slaughtered for food are too small to harvest hides that large....unless the pigskin used was from full grown wild boar...but then it would likely have too many blemishes. Anyone know?

My opinion is that the "pigskin" hides were not actually pigskin, they were natural colored beefhides embossed with pigskin-like dimples. I agree with Keith about pig hides being too small to make a standard Mark II bolster.

Attached is a picture of a swatch that Lowell Domholdt sent to me. This is from a hide that Elmer Rohn gave Lowell years ago. Lowell isn't sure whether it's from a hide for a car with DSO specifications for "Natural Tan Leather" or "Pigskin" (There were three of each). Because of the dimpling in the grain pattern, I believe that is from a "Pigskin" hide.

I believe that a hide produced for a "Natural Tan Interior" would have the normal Bridge of Weir graining. This sample certainly doesn't!

So, I'm calling it pigskin until better information comes along.

[rfm45]

Lowell sent me a similar pigskin sample obtained from Elmer Rohm. Keith made an valid point that real pig hides would be too small for the large upholstery panels. I came to the same conclusion as Pat that it’s pigskin grained cowhide. Further, the DSO specifications differentiate between Natural Tan Leather and pigskin. It’s reasonable to assume the only difference would be the grain pattern; natural tan being approximately the same color but with the regular Bridge of Weir grain.

[Pat Marshall]

Here is a picture of 2815's current interior from the For Sale Listing by Exotic Classics, Syosset, NY

[Mark Norris]

I agree, my hood has just also been repaired at the hinge attachment points, there is a huge bending moment applied by the hinge springs in order to keep tht hood up. In fact the hood inner panel was pulling the spot welds out from the hood top panel, I suggest using a hood prop (stick with cloth wrapped around each end) when working on the car so as to minimise/remove these the bending forces on the hood inner skin.

[Joseph Stebbins]

I agree, my hood has just also been repaired at the hinge attachment points, there is a huge bending moment applied by the hinge springs in order to keep tht hood up. In fact the hood inner panel was pulling the spot welds out from the hood top panel, I suggest using a hood prop (stick with cloth wrapped around each end) when working on the car so as to minimise/remove these the bending forces on the hood inner skin.

I put the prop stick right by the hood latch pin so you don't hit the back of your head on the pin.

[lincoln mark]

I ALSO put a moving quilt, {you know the kind we never put back in the U Haul truck after we rent the truck} across the panel between the hood and the windshield. This helps in case you or the other 4 people that are helping you hold the hood in place lets it slid backwards.