History of this vehicle...potential scam listing for sale

[christine]

Looking for any owner history or knowledge of C56B1991. It lists as a dark blue car with white/blue interior but that is not what I see in the database and the reply from the listing smells like a classic Craigslist scam (note...this was not listed on CL).

Thank you,
Christine

[Pat Marshall]

Where are you getting this information from? A link would be helpful!

[jdsnoddy]

Here's the history on 1991:
https://www.markiiforum.com/showthread.php?5112-1991-Current-Owner-Forum-Member-California
I think Jim Fox of California circa 2012 is the last info we have.
Yes, it would be helpful to know what link you're referencing.
Regards,
John

[christine]

https://cars.trovit.com/used-cars/1956-lincoln-continental-mark-ii

I have no idea what Trovit is. You see the same cars listed at different prices...red flag #1. The car in question is the one for $17K. Click on most of the cars and you get AmericanListed.com or automotive-classified.com redirects. Here is the reply I get from my inquiry to seller:

I have attached a full set of pictures for you. Please check them.
I'm sorry for this late response but I was out of civilization and I had no internet connection. I am working offshore and I don't know when I will return because of this coronavirus. The car is located at the auto broker in Dover, DE stored inside and ready to go. The car belonged to my father who recently passed away. He was the second owner. The car, the title, two sets of keys, manuals and some service history records is what you will get from the auto broker. I arranged for the sale right before I left, so all set on my end. I propose to close the deal through an auto broker, in the most safe and easiest way possible for both of us. Basically, it's similar to buying a car locally, the money will be sent to their holding account, and they will keep the money until you receive the car. After the car is delivered, you will have a 7 days inspection period before you decide if you wish to keep it or not. If you are serious about buying the car, I will ship it anywhere with no extra cost. If you want to move forward please contact me back so we can get the ball rolling.

Thank you and stay safe,


Geothermal Engineer | David Wiebes


And when I asked for s/n he sent a pic of the plate. All the pics are of a blue car.

This is a similar process used by apartment scammers in NYC, from my prior experience. It feels phishy, especially for that price. Of course I would never pay money in advance like this. But the history of the car should tell the truth.

I hope scammers have not made it to the classic car industry. Maybe this is legit. But if not maybe we can use this as the start of a warning to future inquirers.

[christine]

I don't have access privileges to that page John

[jdsnoddy]

It only costs a dollar per month to become a sponsor member who has unlimited access to all pages on this forum. I encourage you to join us as a sponsor member.
Best regards,
John

[christine]

Ah, I see now.

[jdsnoddy]

There are many scam websites out there.
Recommend you steer clear of trovit.
Bottom line: never buy a car unless you personally inspect it and the title. If it sounds too good to be true, it usually is a scam. The cars for sale posted on this forum are usually legit. Hemmings, auction houses as Sotheby's, Bonham's and Goodings are also bonafide. Please be careful out there.

P.S We cannot confirm or deny that David Wiebes or his father ever owned a Continental Mark II
Regards,
John

[Pat Marshall]

How did you come up with the VIN C56B1991?

This is interesting, because Forum Member Jack Bowser has searched for that car for years.

For example, Jack posted this in 2020 "I think there may be a chance someone in a club in the Northern California area may know where the mark II ( C56B1991) might be. Jim Fox posted something about it in 2012 and he was from San Francisco. I owned this car back in the early 1960's and would love to find out about it's whereabouts and condition today."

[Jack Bowser]

I owned C56B1991 back in the 1960's and would love to find it.
It was originally two tone gray per the serial number plate. 11-18-1B6K-1208-5
Where did you see it listed? What is CL?
Last know whereabouts was back in 20012 as mentioned here in San Fransisco by Jim Fox.
When I sold it in 1964 it went to San Fransisco so maybe it has been there ever since.

[Jack Bowser]

I took a look and the site is hard to surf. The same car is also listed as being in Brookfield, a suburb of Milwaukee for $30,000. and again for $20,500.
The pictures are taken at the same house.
I couldn't find a picture of the data plate. Did someone say there is a picture of it?
I sent the seller a note asking to come see the car. His answer should be interesting.
If you this car is a bargain, They also have a 1957 Mercedes 300 SL Roadster listed for $90,000.

I'll take all those I can get at that price. Ha!

[Jack Bowser]

Right on, John.
They also have a 1957 Mercedes 300 SL Roadster listed for $90,000.

[Jack Bowser]

Another red flag is the lack of the kings english as the saying goes.
Christine, can you send me the data plate picture he sent to you.
Send it here or to my email jbowz@aol.com
He says his father was the second owner except I was and sold it to a Japanese lady who took it to San Fransisco.
This has spam written all over it.

[jdsnoddy]

https://cars.trovit.com/used-cars/1956-lincoln-continental-mark-ii

I have no idea what Trovit is. You see the same cars listed at different prices...red flag #1. The car in question is the one for $17K. Click on most of the cars and you get AmericanListed.com or automotive-classified.com redirects.
And when I asked for s/n he sent a pic of the plate. All the pics are of a blue car.



The pictured car appears to be C56B1996 which is a $49,000 car. Our most recent ownership history Is :

2020-2021 Francois Courtois Montreal CN
Hope this helps. John

P.S. Too good to be true; suggest you move on.

[christine]

Jack/Pat, see plate provided by the "seller". Doing some further listing research and this smells bad. I'll explain later when I have time but wanted you to see this plate.

What is trim code 7B6B-1 (on tag)? That doesn't appear in the trimconfig.pdf. This s/n has 02 for color and the car obviously looks like it was repainted blue again. See overspray on s/n tag.

So the tag, s/n, and claimed owner history don't match with your history or database listings.

The reference above "CL" meant Craigslist.

Also, what does the last sequence in the tag, 208-10, represent?

Thanks again,
Christine
25283

[jdsnoddy]

Original Invoice Specifications - 02 1B6B
Continental Color: Deep Blue
Trim: White Leather Seat Biscuits & Bolsters w/Medium Blue Welts
SPEC: 02-1B6B-(1)208-10 (Data Plate was erroneusly stamped 7B6B)
(1)208 is the production date: December 8, 1955
Please note the "208" should read "1208"
Someone must have had a hangover when they stamped this data plate.
10 is the sequence number believed to be the 10th unit
Produced that day.
CL is our abbreviation for craigslist.

This plate matches C56B1996
The last number could have been photoshopped.
Regards,
John

[christine]

I saw 1996 as well in the database which is why the s/n tag looked phony. Aside from photoshopping the s/n, was it not an uncommon thing to have the wrong trim stamp? In this case a 7 instead of 1? Why would someone photoshop the trim code to 7B6B when the original trim for 1991 was 1B6K?

I'm confident this is a scam but I want to expose it if so. I'm playing the game here with them, back and forth on email with the "Seller". That's why I got him to tell me the owner history. Doesn't match either of those cars. Capital Auto Sales does not come up on any Google Search for Dover, DE. The email provides a secure link web url so that means it's private. Of course when I click on it I pull up their company and all their terms. Looks legit but it's intended to. Again, you can't pull them up on the public web. The also provide in email the Yelp and Yellowpages write-up for their business. But those are bogus because the secure urls are titled yelplocalbusiness and yellowpageslocalbusiness, and there is no such thing.

Oddly, the address I got from their website came up on Google Maps with the Capital Auto Sales tag hovered over the building on the map. That's odd. It's in a parking lot next to a Van Line company. So I called that business and inquired. There is no Capital Auto next to them and their building listed on the map is their own warehouse.

It gets better. I left message with Capital per the # given in email. Someone of Asian Indian descent called me back and I played along. How can I view the car? You have to arrange with the seller. Conveniently the seller is out of the country and wants me to coordinate with Capital. You see the circle. I asked if the car was there where I can visit it. Answer was yes (???). BTW...do you know which car I am referring to? Yes, the 56 Continental. How did you know that? Because you left v-mail earlier. I intentionally did NOT specify any vehicle in my message so I asked him again how he knew. He then asked why I'm asking so many questions. Because I want to connect the dots. He then said because you're name is Christine and that matches with the seller's notes. So obviously there is a back office communication going with the seller and this company.

I asked him to send me a copy of their business license and the car title. We'll see. I just want this exposed.

[Graham Rollo]

well done thank you

[Pat Marshall]

I don't recall any instances where a Mark II's data plate had the wrong spec code, maybe an occasional type single digit typo on the plate.

The 1996 data plate was obviously altered, using the same photo as we used on the Forum history. Here are the two side by side:
25284 25285

[christine]

Let this be a lesson to all. This could be any make vehicle- there are scammers and cyber threat people everywhere. Pat- you confirmed it straight on. The 2 tags have identical markings 100% through. They took the obvious path of altering the s/n but didn't go far enough to alter the trim code which makes this truly stand out as bogus.

Here's what concerns me: you said the 1996 photo was from the Forum history. That tells me they got the photo from this forum? If so they registered an account and are probably trailing this thread. I smell a mole here. And maybe every other vehicle scam/forum they are engaged with.

It amazes me that people are full time involved in this type of business. I am in the cybersecurity space and I see it daily, with the more common phishing and ransomware attacks.

I experienced something similar when relocating to the NY area several years ago. Craigslist ads for apartments: beautiful pictures for low priced apartments in high rent districts. Too good to be true! Landlords who are out of the country but will coordinate rent payment with the building superintendents. Oh by the way, they are not at the building locations, so please sent the deposits to this location. It's really sad.

[Pat Marshall]

Actually, I didn't say the photo was from the Forum, I said the scammer was..."using the same photo as we used on the Forum history."

I don't know where the scammer got the photo from, but, it wasn't from the Forum. The photos that the scammer used were of 1996, but, other than the VIN photos, they were older than the ones on the Forum.

To illustrate the first picture below is of the engine compartment posted by the scammer. The second one was the 2020 photo posted on the Forum. You can clearly see that the scammer's photo shows the engine compartment before a restoration, while the 2nd photo was taken after the compartment was restored.
25286 25287

No mole here!

[Mark Norris]

I'll have to admit I did buy and ship 3186 without actually seeing it nor having it inspected. Risky I know. In my 1 year search I am across a great many bogus adverts ..usually given away by the same car or a mix of car shots from another advert at a price too good to be true. I worked for a tech company all my career so we were well trained in Phishing, cyber security and the tell tail signs of suspicious internet activity (inconsistency, poor spelling, poor grammar, lack of detail, too much detail, odd phone numbers, odd email format, foreign involvement etc. etc.).

When I did find the car (at Prestige Autos in SoCal, a classic Thunderbird dealership) I fully researched the company and checked google maps etc. as Cristian did, then phoned several times to enquire while making sure I got the names of the people I was talking to so I could check against the company records. I asked techical details I already knew the answer to to see if they knew what they were talking about. I got then to send a stack of photos, then asked twice more for new photos of areas that were missed asking forn specific angles so it was certain they at least had access to the car. Turning to the owner (they were selling it on consignment). I checked the photos in the advert which were in at private driveway. Checking the address on google maps the same distinctive drive was present at the same address. I checked the owners name and it appeared on a list of owners for a fan website (not the Forum). I also checked contact details for the owner's name and the same address was given.

Everything checked out.

I must admit I was rather nervous so I sent a small "test payment" first. and that went fine ..not much of a legitimacy test I know. I sent the shipper to take a look at the car on the pretense of having to make sure it was OK to ship. Everything checked out before sending the balance of funds.

Eventually 3186 turned up in Scotland. Condition was even better than I expected (its in very nice driver condition) especially at the price paid.

Would I recommend doing it this way ..no, clearly I don't always take my own advice.

[Barry Wolk]

I got totally misled on my car, but it turned out OK. I fell for a fake history of it being a "lost" Derham car. With no proof the owner had concocted a story and even went so far as to have Derham badges made after he "discovered" two holes in the front fenders that supposedly had held Derham badges. Had it not been for Rick Bondy, Ford VP in charge of Ballistic cars, and former Secret Service agent assigned to Presidential limos, I would have continued to promote the Derham nonsense. Had it not been for Rick telling me to research H&E I would not have found Willard Hess' son nor would I have found Art Sears, who retired as H&E's Production Manager.

[christine]

As expected they are not responding to me because they know I'm onto them. The guy from Capital reluctantly said he would contact the seller for my request to view the car. I emailed the seller and asked the same. No reply from either.

My 2 emails to Capital asking for their business license and copy of the title have not been answered.

Look at all the fake ads on this site. Why can't they be shut down?

https://cars.trovit.com/used-cars/1956-lincoln-continental-mark-ii

[Carrieg]

My husbandresponded to this man today about a 1972 Blazer. His post said the exact same thing that he sent to you. Absolutely a scam. I googled his name and looked for him on Facebook. That's how I ran across your thread. And I'm glad I did. My husband eas thinking about send him 16,000.🤦*♀️